Roger Waters

In the Flesh

(the preamble of "Time" is played )

He is one of the most enigmatic figures in all of Rock & Roll. It has been 12 years since he was last out on the road. A lifetime for most people, in a business that seems to change idols with every tick of the clock.

But this is no ordinary rock star. And in the past 12 years, the mystery which surrounds this artist has only deepened as the anticipation of his return to the concert stage has grown. For this is the man, whose vision took you to the Dark Side of the Moon.

(The beginning of "Breath" is played )

His vision that took you into the heart of The Machine...

(The beginning of "Welcome to the Machine" is played )

in to the belly of the beast...

(a portion of "Dogs" is played )

and took you Up Against the Wall.

(a portion of "Another Brick in the Wall Pt. 2" is played ).

From the first Pink Floyd album to his solo work on "Amused To Death," his extraordinary vision has changed Rock & Roll for ever.

(a portion of "What God Wants" is played )

I'm Jim Ladd, and it will be my pleasure to introduce you to this visionary artist as the SFX Radio Network presents an exclusive broadcast special for the most highly anticipated concert tour of the decade, Roger Waters "In The Flesh"

(the beginning of "In the Flesh" is played )
(Commercial )

Jim: I'm Jim Ladd, and we're back with the SFX Radio Network special with Roger Waters.

Now I sat down to do this interview with Roger in the exclusive South Hampton area of New York where he was rehearsing for the tour which he has dubbed "In The Flesh 99."

And we began with the question of how he went about deciding which songs he would play in the show, given the fact that he has 30 years of material to choose from.

Roger: I listened to all the records one after the other...

Jim: ...no you didn't...

Roger: ...I bloody well did...

Jim: Did you really...

Roger: ...and I wrote a very very very long list of all the tunes that I really liked.

Jim: Did you seriously do that?

Roger: Yea, I really did...

Jim: ...starting from which record?

Roger: Well starting from the beginning... starting from "Piper..."

Jim: Well that's really interesting. You're going to make Floyd fans so happy that you did this.

Roger: I can't do all the things that I want to do, and in the end I had to make really broad side strokes through things and go KKkkkkkkkkroh... go on... maybe another time but not this time, because I wanted to do something that I felt had a form and a balance and a shape. But the other thing that I've done different this time, which I've never done before is, when I went out before, I was very much in a mind set of going... "Well I'm only going to play the songs that I wrote all on my own, I'm not going to do anything that... apart from "Wish You Were Here... you know, which Dave wrote the guitar riff at the beginning, and at the end, and I wrote the song. But... so that was a joint venture. But I think, apart from that, I stuck very much ya know to Pink Floyd... but that song really means so much to me that I just kind of had to do it.

But this time, I thought, no, that's really narrow thinking. Ya know, I was part of making some really good work with the other guys in the band in those early days. And some of it, the songs that I wrote, in the middle of those things.. I mean obviously, that we all contributed to in our different ways... some of them were great, and I've never performed... in fact they've never been performed... since... since then. And...

Jim: Give me an example.

Roger: Well, Shine On...we're doing...

Jim: Oh wonderful, wonderful...

Roger: I mean, I say we're doing "Shine On...", there are 7 parts, and it starts at the beginning of the record and it finishes at the end of the record, and it's jumbled about and all that... We're doing a few of them stuck together in a... in a...place ya know. And it's very moving... singing that... now... all this time later... However long it is... 25 years later.

(A portion of "Wish You Were Here" is played. )

Jim: Recently, Roger was quoted as saying that he couldn't wait to get back out on the road because he missed the magic of playing on stage. Well, although he's regarded as one of Rock & Roll's most brilliant showman, the connection with his audience has sometimes been... well less than that of what he may have envisioned. And I wondered, what about that has changed?

Roger: What's changed...? I supposed what's changed is that... I'll tell you what changed. I did that Walden Woods thing for Don Henley at the Universal Amphitheater in LA in '92. And... it was magical... for me. There was no big show, but there was... I felt a real connection. There was a real kind of empathy. It was... and... there was a really nice vibe anyway... it was just a... well you remember... you were there, It was just a great evening. And it kind of reminded me to a certain extent of what it used to be like in the very early days of Pink Floyd when we would play... you know like the Santa Monica Civic, or... but that kind of size of place... you know... or the Eagle Auditorium in Seattle, or ...there were lots of them. They were all quite reasonably small venues, were we would appear with our quad sound and our show... and our theater... our little bit of theater... and my feelings, which were in the songs. ("Fearless" is begins being played in the background ) And... connections would be made between us on the stage, and the audience in the auditorium... and 'the spirit's hard to touch, that join us to our kind' that are magical. And that is what... you know the magic of the performing arts is about.

(The end few minutes of "Fearless" is played ).

That magic got crushed by the weight of numbers as we became more and more popular and as we collectively became seduced by the same thing that you were just suggesting that Mick Jagger has been seduced by... which is... I guess... avarice, and also, you become seduced by the idea, that in some way those numbers can prop up one's self esteem. This is actually is an illusion. it's what you discover... If you go down that road, you discover that that is illusory, it doesn't happen, it doesn't help...

Jim: It doesn't tell you that people love you because you have platinum albums... that they scream at your shows.... that's illusory....?

Roger: Ah... no... the fact that lots and lots of people buy the tickets and come to the show, tells you that you're popular, that's what it tells you.

Jim: And the difference between that and...

Roger: Well, you know popular is a very interesting word... you know.. Popular... there is no intrinsic merit in popularity... in my view... you know... I mean without naming names... there are many artists...

Jim: ...oh go ahead...

Roger: ...who are very popular, who, on other scales of value's... I wouldn't credit with a great deal of work... So popularity itself is... is not... is actually... potentially more of a burden than it is something that can remove a burden...

("Have A Cigar" is played ).

Jim: Is your work .. and I know this is a cliché question for a writer... but is it therapeutic, is it cathartic... because you are so... some of your stuff is so raw...

Roger: Any creative act is therapeutic. It's not whether you're me, or you, or anybody else... isn't it?

Jim: It is to me...

Roger: It is to everybody. It's you know... this is what we should be putting our energy towards. Is finding out how we can encourage our children you know, and ourselves and our friends and whatever... to be more creative and less destructive. And I have this feeling that if we weren't so busy trying to sell... you know... MacDonalds to the Dali Lama, we would have more time to be happy. And happy... for happily creative... in whatever sense that may mean, however that might open up... and it's an opening thing. Creativity is an opening thing... and it's in everybody. It's in everything and everybody. And if you can open whatever it is that you have to offer... and create whatever it is that you have to create... it makes you happy.

Jim: Well also, it would be nice... if we could honor... the less obvious forms of creativity. Because person like you gets a lot of positive feedback. I get a lot of positive feedback in what I do. We get a lot of strokes in what we do... But somebody who might be a very creative carpenter... or a very creative... I don't know... pick your profession, may not get that kind of accolades. And its too bad that we can't recognize and encourage a wider spectrum of creativity, I think is what I'm saying.

Roger: Well, I think we can. You know... In fact, I know we can. Because if Rock 'n' Roll is about anything, it's about encouraging that sense of community in people who are not... you know.. necessarily doing things that they personally find... you know.. isn't that where the dream comes from... isn't that the hit... when you're bored, or in school, or working in the factory or whatever, and you hear John Lennon and you go and you make a connection with that... and you know... you... it's a vicarious thing... but it's more than that... you make that connection... who ever you are... and in order to make that connection, you open yourself up... and that in itself is an act of creativity. It doesn't have to be an aggressive thing.. .you don't necessarily have to do anything... You know... I mean for instance... in a gig... like in a gigs like that were going... to say that I'm going to do some gigs now... all right... there I am being creative on stage or whatever... but in order for it to work... the audience has to be creative too... we're all part of the whole thing... we all create the moment together.

Jim: It's a communal thing.

Roger: It's a communal thing. And in order to create that sense of community... you can't create that sense of community without everyone being involved.

("Hey You" is played, then a commercial break ).

Jim: I'm Jim Ladd, and if you just joined us, were talking with writer, bass player, vocalist and founding member of Pink Floyd, Roger Waters whose solo tour, In The Flesh '99" begins this weekend after a 12 year hiatus from the road. As any Pink Floyd fan knows Roger left the band after the album Final Cut. The split with David Gilmour, Nick Mason, and Rick Wright was not exactly pleasant, in fact it was down right ugly. But now that some time has passed, I wondered what he thought of the end result?

("One of These Days" begins playing in the background. )

Roger: I'm not sure really their is an end result. Yeah, what happened is that four guys, five, guys, six guys, seven buys, eight guys between the years of 1963 and you know... 1968 or 9, got together in groups, variously called "The T Set," or "Megadeaths," or "Pink Floyd," and God knows what else, and you know, one of us went a bit crazy, and another one joined and we kind of were batted about on the ocean of Rock & Roll in those early days, and you know, we were hungry and we all had our needs and we were emotionally incomplete and all of that... and it all happened everything went down, and those of us that survived became very successful as Pink Floyd, and then...(deep inhale )... that hit the fan... because once you've achieved those original goals, you know of making a few quid and becoming famous, then what do you do then... then you have to start looking beyond all of that... into well OK that's done, ...but actually I realize that that doesn't really define who I am and there's more to me than that... and what is it, and I don't feel great about everything...and you know and then you start moving beyond that. We produced more work... maybe some of the good work that came after Dark Side of the Moon, which is when we hit that moment, like "Wish You Were Here,"... which we fought like cat and dog... Gilmour and I fought and fought over that record... and "Animals" and "The Wall" and it went on and on and on... and the work is there and we did some great work... you know, together, and eventually I felt crushed beneath the weight of numbers and decided that I didn't want to do that anymore...

("The Show Must Go On" is played in the background. )

And they decided that they weren't crushed by the weight of numbers... they actually rather liked the weight of numbers, and they did want to go on doing that sort... and so they did.

("The Show Must Go On" ends. )

("In The Flesh" begins playing in the Background )

And they then did some more work, so there's more work... And I did some more work... so there's more work... so everybody carried on doing whatever and whatever... and the story continues... Whether they'll do any more work now, I haven't the faintest idea. You know, maybe they will, maybe they won't. You know, that family has grown... sort of... bigger... he he (laughs ).

Jim: Sort of... yeah...

Roger: ... sort of got bigger... and so then people must make their minds up whether or not there is any magic in this bit of work, or that bit of work, or that bit of work, or that bit of work, you know... and that matters to me...

Jim: That matters to you... who's got the magic?

Roger: ...that matters to me... it matters to me... that matters to me... you know... whether people can tell the difference between Sumo... and WrestleMania...

("In the Flesh" continues to the end... '...Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel, so they sent us along as a surrogate band... we're gonna find out where you fans really stand...' )

Jim: Although the prospect of Roger ever playing with Pink Floyd again is less than one's chances of what... well... winning the lottery....a lot of people do wonder if David Gilmour and Roger Waters have resolved their problems on a personal level, and can refer to one another as.... friends?

Roger: I don't think we'll ever be friends.... you know there was too much bitter stuff around the time when we went our separate ways... and about what should happen with the name of the band... and as everybody knows, I wanted to retire it, and they wanted to keep it... and they kept it... and buh buh buh buh buh.... and it all got very acrimonious and nasty and difficult. But you know, maybe in a way that was... uhm... not that bad a thing... we, we're very different people and we were bound to go our separate ways and do our different things, and Dave's made his choices and so has Nick, and Rick or whatever... and I've made my choices and here we are... And where they are is their business, and where I am is my business...you know.

Jim: But the point is... you're all fine now...

Roger: I'm comfortably separated.... from all of that.

Jim: Comfortably separated.... guess what song's coming next...

Roger: Yea... And it's not numbness... I think I kind of know what happened from my point of view... and from... I think that my feelings about it all are a lot clearer... than they were... you know... I was quite pissed off for quite along time but I don't feel that anymore really.

("Comfortably Numb" is played ).

Jim: Just to make sure that we've covered the point of what is important to you, let me just ask you, why is it important? Is it so that people understand the art and the difference between what is being said as Pink Floyd as opposed to what was being said while you were in there, is that what you want them to understand?

Roger: You know, 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour ago in this interview, you described the songs as my children.

Jim: Right.

Roger: OK, so... although I've dealt with the anger now... I'm not in that redness of it all... never the less, seeing my children prostituted or sacrificed on the alter of... whatever it is... is upsetting to me, and I would prefer it didn't happen. It's not just about money, it's about ego, it's about self esteem, it's about definition of self. It's about... it's about all of that stuff that Rock & Roll is about... you know... and that maybe one hopes you can transcend at some point. And the artists who I want to go and see, I feel, have transcended it. I don't get that off Randy Newman when I go and see him singing his songs... I get no feeling at all ...that here is a man building himself into a monument. This is a guy who writes wonderful songs that connect with me. And when I see him perform them, I get the shiver down the spine and I come out of the show re-energized. You know... I may come out of the show sad or happy or whatever, but feel that I've been touched. And it concerns me that my songs are being used in a way that doesn't do that. Cause I know it doesn't.

("Pigs On the Wing Pt. 1" is played.. then commercial break: At the end of tonight's show we'll give you details on how you can enter to win a CD catalog of Roger Waters solo works plus autographed commemorative posters. Your listening to In The Flesh on the SFX Radio Network ).
("Two Suns in the Sunset" is begins... )

Jim: I'm Jim Ladd and we're back now, with Roger Waters.
You know, at this point in the interview, I felt that everything was going great and that we'd achieved a really good rapport which was something that was very important....

Roger: ...you're so argumentative!

Jim: Hey, wait a minute... why is it me that's argumentative???

Roger: (Laughs )

Jim: I'm just asking the questions...

Roger: ... "have a nice day"... shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhPkgh...

Jim: OK... umm...that question...and that question...and that question... and that question...

Roger: (more laughter )

Jim: OK... sometimes rapport can be highly over rated. So lets just plow on shall we.

("Speak to Me" begins in the background ).

Dark Side of the moon, which dealt with many aspects of the human condition... greed, mortality, compassion for the less fortunate, and the perceived insanity of people who care too much... how do you view that album today?

Roger: You know the interesting thing about that is that for years and years and years, people are always asking that question... what is it that makes that album so this and that and the other... And I think part of it actually resides in the idea's. I mean a lot of it is in the music... obviously... good tunes... well played... nice guitar solos.... buhbuhbuhbuhbuh... good piano playing... buhbuhbuh... and on all that.... but some of it resides in the ideas. And the ideas, manifest themselves not only in the lyric, but also in the guitar playing and the piano playing and buhbuhbuh... they are... the guitar playing, the piano playing, and the bass playing... buhbuh... they are an expression of the ideas. And they are a genuine expression of the ideas and feelings that are in the piece.

(The beginning of "Breathe" is played in the background ).

And so, it may be...
Doyle said to me the other day... Doyle Bramhall, he's playing guitar on this thing... and singing... and he said to me, he said, "Ah jest luv thet Breathe... Ah luv thet song". And I've been thinking about "Breathe over the last couple of years... you know as I do my career... (laughs )... and there's something about the simplicity of that... you know... "breathe... breath in the air... don't be afraid... to care... and.... which... what am I trying to say... which we need to hear. And we need to hear it in a way that we can go, 'yeah OK' and we'll not take too much notice of it... but umm

Jim: It's like an affirmation... it's like when you hear that... it is like an affirmation, like Us and Them is an affirmation..

Roger: Yeah... let me... let me answer that question again... I mean... It's like an affirmation... (laughter!!! ) Now I hope you edit that properly... so it sounds like I thought of it...

Jim: Absolutely... oh... I guarantee it...

Roger: OK

("Breathe" finishes playing )

Jim: A lot has changed in the twelve years that Roger has been away from the concert stage... not the least of which... is the huge... some might say outrageous increase in ticket prices, and I wanted to know what he thought about the price some bands are charging for their shows at the end of the Twentieth Century?

Roger: Well you know... I mean.. what can I say... Mick Jagger has always been a man who has been all to happy to line his pockets at every opportunity and he makes no secret of the fact, you know... he likes to earn a great deal of money. As much money as he possibly can and spend as little as he possibly can, and he's well known for it. And that's ... why should he be any different from people in other sphere's of business, you know. We know that there are other people that are avaricious and parsimonious in all walks of life and there are bound to be some in Rock & Roll as there are in..

Jim: Right...

Roger: This is one of the inevitable outcomes of the free market.

Jim: Yeah, but wasn't there a time in Rock & Roll were there was something about the proletariat something about this is music for the people. Rock stars have always been rich... and we've... fans have never begrudged them from being rich... but this just seems...

Roger: You can get rich by charging somebody $30.00 for a ticket, same as you can by charging them $300.00 for a ticket. If there are enough of them.

Jim: That's right... and also the fact that you're not now prohibiting people that have been supporting you all these years from coming and seeing you. That's what I worry about.

Roger: I think... I don't know... but I think... and we'd have to check into this... but I think my front row seats are $50.00.

Jim: Well... today... that is VERY reasonable.

Roger: ...right...

Jim: I'm telling you... by today's standards that is extraordinarily reasonable.

Roger: Good, well, I'm glad to hear that... because... there's no way that we're going to make a profit out of this tour, obviously. But some people go on the road and they want to make a profit out of the tour. But it's a question of how much profit, and what's right and what's wrong. That was always one of my beefs about football stadiums you know... oh well we have to do football stadiums because it's not fair to our fans not to.... oh well sure... well then why not charge them $5.00 each then and you guys all make $100,000.00. But they don't, they charge them $50.00 each, or 60 or 70 or whatever it may be and make fortunes. And, you know, it's profiteering. And there is profiteering in businesses and industries. And the central bit of the question that you were asking me was, wasn't there a time when... There are people in Rock & Roll who have a kind of political, philosophical, moral and musical concerns that are not shared by everyone else. And that was always so... you know... and I'm not sure that the Stones would have ever have pretend... although there was that kind of abject...prop you know... Street Fighting Man... you know. And it may be that... and it may be that either Mick or Keith... have... underneath... or beyond it all... some kind of concerns about all that stuff, but that it doesn't extend to where they will put their ticket prices.

("Money" is played ).

Just to finish that question though... if you're asking me... do I think it's wrong to prohibit people who love your music and always have from going to the show because they can't afford it because they're just ordinary people doing ordinary jobs and their earning 'x' amount a year, who can't afford $300.00 for a ticket, or whatever it may be, then I absolutely agree with you. I think... that yeah... it's wrong... that if you're going to do shows like that... it would be good... you can do the shows for the black ties if you want... but do another one for the people that supported you over all the years as well.

Jim: That would be my point exactly, do a small club, charge a thousand dollars... charge five thousand dollars a seat...

Roger: ...ten thousand...

Jim: ...whatever... but then do a show where people of any means can come.

Roger: Yes!

("Money" finishes ).

Jim: Will this tour have a presentation like what we're used to seeing? Because you're one of the great stagers of Rock & Roll shows ever. I don't know that any body's ever equaled you in that way.

Roger: Laughter...

Jim: ...well I'm not stoking you... that's the case.

Roger: I know, ah yeah. Well there is a show... it's not minimalist but it's simple. And I hope it'll be moving.

Jim: But it will have a theme, and a beginning and a middle and an end? It won't just be you playing the hits?

Roger: It has a beginning and a middle and an end. But only insofar as the hits... as you call them, are put together in a way, that.... moves me.

Jim: I see. And how about the projections and the lights? Will that be all part of the ah, experience.

Roger: Uh, yeah. I mean we're using quad sound. So there'll be that element of theater involved. And we're projecting from Front of House, with Pani-Projectors, which are the projectors I used in Berlin, you know, to do all the architecture on the wall and stuff... their very very powerful projectors and we've got four of them, two on each side of the stage. And they produce an image that's a double square, and we're draping... we're not doing a stretch screen or anything...we're just draping, and these things are so powerful that the images should... read... I hope in a rather magical and theatrical way. That whole theater... which is what... you know has kind of been the stage on which I have done my work in Rock & Roll over the years, is still a theater to which I'm attached. And that's what this is...

("Radio Waves" begins )

I love the theater... and it will be that same kind of theater... which is my neighborhood.

("Radio Waves" is played ).

Jim: Tell us the members of the band real quick.

Roger: Well... their Andy Fair-weather Low playing guitar. And Snowy White playing guitar. And Doyle Brahmhall, who is a new boy... to us... playing guitar and singing... and he's singing as well. So that's the guitar players, I'm playing bass and a bit of guitar. And then we have two keyboard players... Jon Carin, who's wonderful, and Andy Wallace, who plays mainly Hammond organ, but he's playing a few other keyboards as well. Graham Broad, from KAOS and before, who is drumming. And Katie Kassoon, who... I'm trying to think when she started... Pro's and Con's and maybe even before that... that is one of the singer's and the other singer is P.P. Arnold, Pat Arnold, who has got an amazing voice and has lived in England for a long time. .... and you're going to be on the tape!

Jim: Am I really...

Roger: And now.... duhduhduhduhduy..."The Powers That Be"...

Jim: Oh, well... now I'm gonna buy a ticket... I'm not even gonna ask for a free one... I'll buy one... (Laughs ).

Billy: Goodnight Jim.

Jim: Goodnight Billy.

(Commercial break... ).

Jim: We're back again with our interview of Roger Waters. And as any fan of his years with Pink Floyd or his solo work knows Roger Waters is not interested in writing catchy little pop songs. On the contrary, his work is conceptual, thematic and addresses the deepest aspects of the human condition, such as war. bigotry, and man's inhumanity to his fellow primate.

Roger: I don't know if you know about Chimpanzee's and Binoboes, but they're very very similar. You know, Binoboes are like Chimpanzee's but there are certain fundamental differences between them. Chimpanzee's will go into a neighboring territory, and if they find a lone Chimpanzee's they'll beat it to death, you know. This has been only very recently discovered. Um, we used to think that only human beings did that, and therefore, that gave credence to the whole notion of the idea of original sin. But it seems as if, our ability to wage war, is actually... has evolved down a particular level of primate, you know, to... and there are reasons why we behave in the way that we do, even though it's beginning to appear to us now that it's self destructive.

And the reaction to that is; GreenPeace, concerns about the food that we eat, the environment....buhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuh... and all of those issues that people go (loud yawn ) you know... but never the less, it's uncomfortable for people to face up to the fact that those are the real issues that are kind of facing us... And, the fact that it may be that we can no longer afford the fun that war is. It costs too much, it's too destructive. You know, that it's not worth the fun... anymore... probably. (The beginning of "What God Wants" begins: I don't mind about the war... that's one of the things that I like to watch... is the war going on....

But there is something in men that wants to go into the next neighborhood and beat somebody to death, and it's something that we need to confront and we need to discover why that is and whether that's still a useful trait... for all of us. My view would be that it's not. And if we could understand... begin to understand what it's about... which we are... that's what self hope's about, that's what, you know, all the psychotherapy's about, that's what you know, that whole movement in that direction of understanding the way that we work, is about. Do human beings have the potential... not through some slow evolutionary progress, but from the application of our hearts and spirits to turn ourselves from Chimpanzee's into Binoboes. (The beginning of "What God Wants" continues ) I am sure that there is something that if we want to, we can call the human spirit... or spirit that exists... in individuals and in the gestalt sense. What it is I haven't the faintest idea. And frankly I don't really care. It doesn't really matter to me. It's like Syd said, you know, about butterfly's... I don't need to isolate it, I don't need to understand what it is... I don't need to stick a pin through it. I don't need to say whether it's Christian or Muslim, or Hindu, or Shinto or whatever. In fact I need absolutely to stand on my soapbox and say all that's BULLSHIT (bleeped out for radio?? ), you're all wrong. That's what I say in "What God Wants." That's all that song is about. It's saying I know that you're all wrong. Because if it weren't, that would mean that one of you is right, you know, and that's self evidently nonsense. So I know you're all wrong!

("What God Wants" is played. )

Jim: So if religion's got it all wrong, why are we here? What in other words is the point?

Roger: What the fuck (partially bleeped a second too late ) is the point of being a human being and being alive, (laughs incredulously ) you know? Is it to get the job with more pay per week, which is what we were taught... in post war, you know, that was kind of the idea. So that we can produce more, so that we can work for what, you know... so that we can um... expand our kind of... ah... you know, the imperialism of the market place into all corners of the earth until every single place on the earth is a MacDonalds. You know that can't be right... you know if you project that to it's ultimate thing... you make more and more and more stuff and, you know, create more and more and more consumers so that we all become consumers...

Jim: ...they got Pepsi in the Andes...

Roger: Yeah... they got Pepsi in the Andes, MacDonalds in Tibet... that can not be it! I refuse to believe that that's what ... that that's the point of it. It just feels to me as if a life devoted to that is a life wasted.

("It's a Miracle" is played ).

Well, you know... and I don't want to put people down who work for MacDonalds. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with working for MacDonalds in a way. We all work for... well we don't all... you know... I'm all right... I lucked out... I discovered I could write songs, and I'm... you know, I'm in a pop group... it's like... you know... I didn't interview with you years ago... when I said, I'm all right... when we finish here I get into a Mercedes and go and eat sushi... and I remember saying that to you...

Jim: ...yeah...

Roger: ...and that's true so it's not... you know... I don't feel that I'm in a position to preach sitting on top of this mountain of materialism. Cause I'm under no illusions about where I sit... there's a lot of material stuff going on. It's not that... It's the philosophy that the powers that be have been trying to sell us... whoever they may be... that just kind of expansionist, imperialist, kind of free market dream... is in some way leading us to the gates of Nirvana. It just seems to me that it's an illusion. Because, at the end of the day, you have to destroy everything that is precious in order to fulfill that... function.

Jim: You've got to bulldoze the tree to build the mini-mall.

Roger: Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly what you have to do. And as Joni Mitchell said... "you don't know what you've lost till it's gone."

(the very end of "Its a Miracle" is played. )

Jim: We'll be back with a final word, when our SFX Radio Network exclusive with Roger Waters continues.

(commercial break ).

(A portion of "Any Colour You Like" is played. )

Jim: I'm Jim Ladd, and were back with one final question for Roger Waters. Is there any destiny involved here, when you say that you could have without Syd's friendship or influence become an architect or gone on some other path, The Wall would have never been written, or Dark Side of the Moon would... or Amused to Death... we would never had... does that give you any faith in... that you were destined to do this?

Roger: No. That's just like a tree growing... you know. There's no more destiny than there is that... you know a tree grows and then an acorn falls off it and something else happens...

Jim: So you don't think you've been put here for a purpose? You think it's just random genes plowing into each other... that you became this writing genius and came up with this stuff... that there's no greater muse that wanted to get the message across to people?

Roger: Well, that's a very interesting question. And I think it may be... No, I don't think I was selected specifically by some higher power to perform some function of whatever it is... of helping us all to understand everything.

However, having said that, I think that it may be that through partly genetics or accidents of circumstance and situation that certain people from time to time... um... stuff happens in their minds that makes them write books or make records or paint paintings or make movies or dance, or do certain things that illuminate connections with each other in some higher something or other... some... some organization. It's a way that the organization has of describing itself to bits of itself. The bits of itself that art describes the organization of the whole thing too, are human beings. Because by and large the rest of nature doesn't give a fuck (bleeped ) about paintings or pop records or anything else. They're busy growing, or doing what ever they do... waving about in the wind. But we do care about it, and we're sentient and that's the interesting thing about human beings... is that somehow we've developed to a point where we can wonder. And art is about sorting out some of that wonder... about ourselves and about everything else.

("Eclipse" is played. )

Jim: Well, that's it. I hope you enjoyed this past 90 minutes. And that we were able to provide a little insight into this extraordinary writer and performer. Roger Waters will take his vision of the world around him, on the road beginning this weekend, and I hope you'll have the opportunity to see this visionary... In The Flesh.

For the SFX Radio Network... I'm Jim Ladd.

Billy: Goodnight Jim

Jim: Goodnight Billy

SFX: If you would like to enter our Roger Waters In The Flesh giveaway, send us a postcard with your name, address, city, state, zip code, telephone number, and the station you heard this broadcast on to: In The Flesh, P. O. Box 10307, Burbank, California, 91510. 75 winners will receive a commemorative In The Flesh Broadcast Poster. 20 winners will receive CD copies of Roger Waters 3 solo albums, The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking, Radio KAOS, and Amused to Death. 5 grand prize winners will receive both the catalog and the commemorative poster, autographed by Roger Waters. All entries must be received by Monday August 9th, 1999. Special thanks to Mark Fenwick at MFM Ltd., to Jim Delvolzo and James Deaner at Columbia Records, to Andrew Zweck of the Roger Waters production team, to Dave Ward, Bear and everyone on the Echoes Internet Newsgroup, to Neil Bird, Maria Musadif, Michael Davis, Jerry McQueen, Ted Utts, Bob Bernecki, Paula Busello, and Inga Madrono of the SFX Radio Network. Tonight's show was engineered by Steve Nelson, interview recorded by Johnny Vien. For more information on the Roger Waters In The Flesh 99 Tour, visit waterstour.cjb.net, the official website for tonight's broadcast. or you can search the ultimate band list at ubl.com, there you'll find a listing of all Roger Waters related websites, that's ubl.com the Internet's ultimate online resource. Roger Waters In The Flesh was written by Jim Ladd and produce by Mark Felsad and John Valenzuela. The executive producers are Gary Bird, Steve Smith, and Tommy Nast. This has been an exclusive presentation of the SFX Radio Network, copyright 1999, all rights reserved.

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